08/09/2026
This conversation with Hannah Berry of of was recorded back in May. And it was SO much fun.
Partly, I’ve just been busy. But when I sat down to edit and publish it, I also noticed a little perfectionism creeping in.
Shocking, I know. 😅
Hannah and I recorded in person at the beautiful studio in Grand Rapids, and the creative energy was flowing. This conversation is full of creativity, joy, and reminders of what becomes possible when we let ourselves make things, connect, and lead in our own authentic way.
So, for perhaps the millionth time, I’m reminding myself... and you:
Perfectionism kills creativity.
And joy.
Tune in to this episode of The Innovative Therapist wherever you listen to podcasts to hear our conversation about creative leadership, how it helps build thriving economic communities, and how it can heal us.
Then go take your next messy, imperfect creative action. And then let us know how it goes. ❤️
Huge thanks to Eric and Layah at for hosting us, and to Hannah for sharing this conversation with me. AND for connecting me with so many wonderful creative people since we recorded.